Foundations of Fortune: Relationship Building, Deal Making, and Mentorship in Commercial Real Estate w/ Trae Anderson

[00:00:00] Welcome to the CRE Project Podcast, the show where we take a deep dive into the world of

[00:00:14] commercial real estate. I'm Clayton King, your guide through the complex environment

[00:00:19] of commercial real estate. So, whether you're looking to invest, develop, or simply understand

[00:00:25] how commercial real estate shapes our cities and economies, the CRE Project Podcast is your ultimate resource.

[00:00:48] Clayton King Thanks so much for jumping on the CRE Project

[00:00:51] Podcast with me today. Excited to have you on the show and discuss some very interesting

[00:00:56] topics as it relates to the office. Clayton King Thanks for having me.

[00:00:59] Clayton King Absolutely, man. Thanks for taking the time.

[00:01:02] So, you're known obviously working with younger partners, have a leadership role within that company.

[00:01:07] I've been a broker for 20 plus years in the DFW market. But take us back. How did you get

[00:01:13] started in the industry? You know, what kind of attracted you to being a commercial real

[00:01:17] estate broker in the Dallas market? Clayton King Okay. It would be akin to

[00:01:22] tripping over a rope and following into a hole. I did not plan this. I did not have anything in

[00:01:30] my career path that said real estate of any kind, let alone commercial real estate where I grew

[00:01:36] up. I grew up in Norman, Oklahoma. I didn't know there was a difference between a commercial

[00:01:40] real estate broker or I thought if you could sell a house, you could sell a building and

[00:01:44] what's the difference? Like most people probably would. Got out of school, worked on some political

[00:01:50] campaigns and then I got a gig working as a fundraiser at the University of Oklahoma and

[00:01:54] I did that for five years. And it was a blast. I mean, it was a lot of fun. Got to travel,

[00:02:00] got to meet people, got to pay for dinner and drinks. It was a lot of fun for paying

[00:02:05] for everybody else, not for myself because we didn't make enough there to buy our own.

[00:02:10] But made a lot of friends and made a lot of contacts and would come to Dallas and Houston

[00:02:15] and San Antonio and Austin. And there was a person here in Dallas that was an OU alum that

[00:02:22] every time I came to see him, was able to get him to write a check and he goes, man,

[00:02:26] you should come work for me. I'd like to see what you could do with a tangible product.

[00:02:30] I'm like, yeah. Well, I find myself working in Dallas Fort Worth not long thereafter and

[00:02:35] for him mentored me for eight and a half years, taught me the business.

[00:02:40] You know, I had no idea that my first listing in the Stimmins area of near Mockingbird and

[00:02:46] left field, that's an area of the building that I concentrated on a long time.

[00:02:52] It's interesting. It's refreshing to hear a new story because typically we always

[00:02:58] hear the same story as far as people getting into commercial real estate and basically

[00:03:03] they have a family. They're bad or they're no. Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting to hear

[00:03:09] from somebody that got into it, not necessarily knowing what they were getting into and how long

[00:03:15] ago was that? That was, I started in commercial real estate in July of 1999. Okay.

[00:03:22] And hearing all my extensive financial background from my journalism degree.

[00:03:27] Yes.

[00:03:28] As you can tell I'm dripping in sarcasm. Yeah, so thank goodness I knew how to use Excel.

[00:03:34] I quickly learned how to use an HP12C and just carried that around to give me a little bit of

[00:03:39] cred with everybody else in the office who knew how to do all the financial equations

[00:03:45] in their head. So, but I liked it immediately. You know, I got into business,

[00:03:50] he turned me loose on a building and in like my second month in the business,

[00:03:55] he was going, he's like, Hey, I'll give you $2,000 a month for three months.

[00:03:59] And then you can, but if you make a deal, you can go commission before that. Okay, fine.

[00:04:04] So my second month in the business, I do a direct deal for 7,000 feet

[00:04:09] and make a very nice fee. And I'm like, yeah, this is the greatest job in the world.

[00:04:15] And then I didn't do another deal for six months. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know about

[00:04:20] this. You know, I was lucky, man. I had people that believed in me and looked after me and

[00:04:26] taught me. And I think that's what probably instilled that quality in me to try to make

[00:04:33] sure we do the same for others. And it very much paid it forward towards others because now

[00:04:40] I find myself saying and doing the same things as my mentor did.

[00:04:46] So you said you worked with your mentor for eight years, right?

[00:04:49] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:50] So we have a lot of people that ask about mentorship that want to get into the business.

[00:04:56] I mean, what do you contribute to the success of your relationship to be able to work with

[00:05:01] your mentor for eight years successfully?

[00:05:05] Wow. That's a really good question. I think that it was just that I was given a

[00:05:09] lot of freedom. It was a smaller shop. It was more, it was a boutique. So

[00:05:13] early on I was sitting in rooms with decision makers. I was allowed, I was given that access.

[00:05:19] I wasn't, I mean, yeah, I was doing some analytics and yes, I was doing market studies and,

[00:05:25] you know, stacking buildings and getting kicked out of buildings and

[00:05:29] bribe and security guards with candy bars. And I mean, yeah, same thing we've all done.

[00:05:34] But I got not just to see and meet the person who made the decision, but here are the

[00:05:38] reasons why they made the decisions they did. And we grew the company and so I was still enabled

[00:05:46] to sit and then to just directly contact set owners. So I was given a lot of freedom

[00:05:52] and it was probably due to the fact that I was a little bit older. You know, I was 26 years old.

[00:05:59] So when I'm coming out into the business, I had a little bit more work experience.

[00:06:05] They didn't have to hold my hand as much. I think the hardest thing for me was just to

[00:06:09] learn the business. But the most valuable thing he taught me was to

[00:06:16] learn how to recognize if what you're working on is actually a deal. Is this a deal? Is this

[00:06:22] a waste of time? Relyed upon me to make that decision so he didn't have to. So it's like,

[00:06:28] I think every time we got to the point where someone else came to talk to me,

[00:06:30] I got promoted. And so I stuck around and then when the company and then Katrina hits,

[00:06:38] our company started doing a lot of business in Louisiana, but I was still in Dallas.

[00:06:42] And it just seemed a good time. I had an offer to go to another firm. I took it

[00:06:47] with the support of my mentor because he always said something to me.

[00:06:50] And he's a great guy. His name is Michael Brigham. It's a capital commercial.

[00:06:53] Because they get my shout out. Yeah.

[00:06:54] Yeah. Thank you, Michael. Appreciate you.

[00:06:57] As a matter of fact, it's funny. He's positioned out. I lease buildings for them today.

[00:07:01] So it's a great, it's an awesome experience because I also know him well enough to know

[00:07:06] before we pick up a phone. I can tell one of my coworkers, all right,

[00:07:09] here's what he's going to say to us when we try to sell the steel. And it's good to know

[00:07:13] that forethought. But yeah, it just was a great experience to move on. But he always said,

[00:07:20] you never want to fault someone for trying to better themselves.

[00:07:23] And I think I'd done all I could there and it was time to go someplace else.

[00:07:28] And he even said to me, we still talk about it. We still kind of joke about,

[00:07:32] you know, what if we don't stay? And we all, we both agree that it was better and

[00:07:35] everyone's got to do their thing. And I think he said something like as a mentor,

[00:07:40] you may not want them to leave, but you expect them to. So you expect the people you teach.

[00:07:44] And I've seen that happen. I mean, we've talked quite a few people is not,

[00:07:48] I'm not giving saying we're credited for making other brokers what they are.

[00:07:52] I mean, you can't teach someone work ethic. You can't teach someone character.

[00:07:58] They just you have it or you don't. Yeah, I asked the question because I have a similar experience.

[00:08:03] I worked with my mentor that turned into a partner over the course of the years.

[00:08:09] I always like to bring up when somebody has a good mentor to talk about it because

[00:08:14] I often tell people, I think that oftentimes, you know, people that want to get mentored

[00:08:18] have the wrong perspective when entering the relationship. And it's what can I get out of

[00:08:24] this person versus how can I add value to this person? And in turn, like you said,

[00:08:31] you'll just be included on things because you're adding value and they see the value in you and

[00:08:36] you're absorbing what they're all the information that they're giving you. And it's

[00:08:40] really a beautiful thing when you have a good mentorship and partnership starting out.

[00:08:44] And it's just such a crucial thing in this industry in order to be successful is to set

[00:08:50] that foundation and to have a good mentor. So it's something to truly be valued. So

[00:08:55] I can just when you said eight years, I was like, wow, this was really a special thing that you

[00:08:59] guys had to get to hear that you guys obviously still have a relationship and are still friends.

[00:09:05] We are very close friends. And I tell you what's really interesting in course we have the same

[00:09:10] alma mater, which we both serve on the state fair of Texas chairmen's task force. So

[00:09:17] we do a lot of things together outside of the office. But there's still plenty of room for

[00:09:22] the amount of grief we give one another because that's what we do. That's a good friendship.

[00:09:28] Yeah, we had similar backgrounds though. We're both from smaller town in Oklahoma where

[00:09:32] both our fathers were both in the military. We both came from big families. We neither

[00:09:38] one were from Dallas to have a pipeline into any one area of the city. We truly were the,

[00:09:45] I don't know, say outsiders but to a point we were and so it created competition.

[00:09:52] And we're both as most brokers are incredibly competitive. I mean, yeah, we all want to get

[00:09:58] paid. We all want to do well for our families. But I think a lot of the brokers that I know

[00:10:03] and came up with man, we just want to win. Yeah, that's it. Pete. That's it. I don't care if it's

[00:10:09] the deal. I don't care. It's checkers. I mean, if it's a friendly game of foosball, I mean,

[00:10:15] whatever it is. The only thing that's different is you get older. You just get a little bit

[00:10:19] better at handling it than maybe when you were younger. Yeah, so true. So you mentioned

[00:10:25] you were 26 then when you got into the industry. Okay. Where were you at 26? Did

[00:10:30] you have a wife? Did you have kids? Yes, I was married at that point. We had different career

[00:10:35] paths and no children. So it was just, I call it a breakup with paper, you know, no harm, no foul.

[00:10:42] Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I don't ask that obviously to get personal. I just ask

[00:10:45] because a lot of times people come to me just because I own a brokerage now. They have

[00:10:51] a wife and two kids and I'm like, man, it's a tough road to hoe. I'm not saying you can't

[00:10:57] do it, but I mean to get into commercial real estate, you're looking at a year or two years of

[00:11:03] very, a very small earning compared to probably what you're accustomed to. So you being 26 when

[00:11:10] I heard that I was like, I wonder where he was at and what type of responsibilities he had because

[00:11:14] I was lucky that I got into the business when I was 22 straight out of college already broke.

[00:11:19] I was used to that lifestyle. So it's just a dynamic and it was probably interesting. I'd even

[00:11:25] guess from you because it sounds like you had a career, successful career before and then transitioning

[00:11:31] into $2,000 a month until you make your first deal. It was a little different. I mean,

[00:11:37] I grew up in Norman and I went to you. So I really never had the opportunity to move away

[00:11:41] from home. This was kind of, I was just doing that later than everybody else, I guess. And then

[00:11:46] I am married and I have a little boy now. And so he's almost five and have been

[00:11:52] happily married for 11 years. So life just kind of happens, you know, I didn't

[00:11:59] So really quick not to get off, but I think this is interesting because I live the same

[00:12:03] path and it's fun to talk to another guy that I have a six year old son as well

[00:12:07] and a one year old. So I'm kind of in the trenches if you will along with you kind of full

[00:12:13] circle. What would you a role right in a career that is commission based? It's 100% commission.

[00:12:20] You eat what you kill. What do you think leads to or helps a successful marriage when you're

[00:12:27] 100% fee based? Okay, well I think that the one thing I

[00:12:34] will say preach but I think if you walked into any person at our office and said,

[00:12:39] hey, what is Tray's number one rule and it's manage expectations. And I don't keep that

[00:12:46] within the confines of the commercial real estate business or my marriage. It's everything. It's

[00:12:53] family, friends, clients, landlords, tenants, everyone. As long as you're able to manage

[00:13:00] the expectations on your side or the other that typically keeps you in pretty safe waters.

[00:13:09] Whatever you lose the ability to do that by a lack of communication or

[00:13:14] or just a lack of brutal honesty. That's when you're going to find yourselves now having to

[00:13:21] swim a little more quickly up current. I don't know why I'm using all these water references,

[00:13:25] maybe even my dad being the naval officer. It's just in my subconscious but that's how we do it

[00:13:31] and what how I do that is just make sure that man I keep that family calendar up to date. So

[00:13:38] I try to be home for dinner every night. That's a big thing too because that's our time

[00:13:42] together, the three of us. And I don't ever want them to think that's not important. So

[00:13:48] that is probably the number one thing is just to be present and then to manage the expectations.

[00:13:54] That way I like I'll give you for instance like yesterday she's like, okay, remember I've got

[00:13:59] this and this and this this evening. So when you cut home, you have the boy and I'm like no

[00:14:03] problem on the way out the door. I'm like, remember I've got this and this and this

[00:14:07] and this and this evening. And we're both laughing about it. So I think as long as we keep laughing

[00:14:13] about it, everything's okay. There you go. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And like I said,

[00:14:18] I feel like it's an important topic to touch on because a lot of people in our industry or that

[00:14:24] are interested in getting into the commercial real estate space that may be married, I think need

[00:14:29] to know what it takes. And I'm kind of with you. I mean, I have a very successful marriage

[00:14:34] with my wife. And I just tell people all the time it comes down to, to communicating. That's

[00:14:39] really what it takes to really have a successful marriage. And like you said, it's not only a

[00:14:43] marriage. It's an every aspect of your life. But I always feel like that's an important thing

[00:14:48] to share. So yeah, I have a friend in the business that what they do when they hire new

[00:14:53] brokers is his wife will take the significant other of the new hire out to dinner.

[00:15:03] Include the person in and that it could be a husband or a wife and she will sit there and go,

[00:15:09] okay, here's what you can expect on this side. And I'd never heard of anybody doing that.

[00:15:16] And I thought it was genius. Yeah, smart. And it made the, I think it made it a lot better

[00:15:21] at home for the brokers to when they came home. I think a lot of people don't realize

[00:15:27] you spend the entire day on a grind or even arguing with multiple people during the day.

[00:15:35] The last thing you want to do is roll into the door and do that with your person, you know? So

[00:15:43] I thought that was a really smart move. Yeah, no, absolutely. Get them to know what they're

[00:15:47] getting into. Right. So cool. Well, thanks for giving us some background, man. That's

[00:15:53] fantastic. Let's pivot a little bit. Let's talk about what's going on right now. I always laugh

[00:15:58] with a bunch of my office buddies. I just tell them thank you because I'm like, as a retail guy,

[00:16:03] I've been the, I've been having the spotlight on me. I've been the ugly girl at the dance now for

[00:16:08] you know, 10 to 12 years. So it's kind of nice. Everybody's talking about office and

[00:16:14] what's going on with office. So would love to kind of get your input. I mean, let's talk

[00:16:19] about what's going on globally with office space. I mean, we all hear the headlines or the headlines

[00:16:25] true. Is there just a ton of blood? I mean, is there a lot of activity? I mean, fill us in. Give us

[00:16:30] the overview. Okay. Well, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there way smarter than me

[00:16:37] that would be able to answer all the questions on an economic and financial basis.

[00:16:42] I think it's unique having a degree in journalism and that you bring up the headlines

[00:16:46] because it just depends on where you are and what you're in. Speaking nationwide, if you're in New

[00:16:54] York City, if you're in San Francisco, if you're in Atlanta, you're in Houston, you've seen

[00:17:00] you've seen some pretty dark days and the guy with the best flashlight is going to

[00:17:05] going to do really well. But I don't know how that looks for those markets. Okay. I just

[00:17:11] I don't work in them. I just have clients that live in them that will go on and on about lament,

[00:17:20] if you will, about the desperation because they're loaned to value is so nuts. I mean,

[00:17:26] where they were having their value was so much higher and now their value is lower than their

[00:17:31] loan, they're kind of like, well, am I going to hand keys back? And that's just a terrible

[00:17:35] thing to have to hear that they'll get a reset. Last I heard that many people not moving to LA and

[00:17:43] San Francisco and New York and Atlanta, they are there still going to have to have place to office

[00:17:49] or live. So I think they'll be okay. I think we're lucky in Texas because we're pretty well

[00:17:57] insulated business wise. We've got a very pro business mindset in the state of Texas. So we've

[00:18:06] continued to see more and more companies moving here, more companies that support the companies

[00:18:12] that move here. A lot of the people that are coming from New York, California, Illinois are

[00:18:17] seeing that man, we don't have state income tax here and this house costs what? And so that

[00:18:25] but that's led to a bigger issue about, where are we going to put the 150,000 people a year

[00:18:31] that are moving here? So Dallas Fort Worth keeps getting bigger and bigger. And I think in North

[00:18:38] Texas, we're really lucky because I'm not going to say it's all wine and roses, but we've got it

[00:18:43] better off than a lot of other submarkets do. Did we have negative absorption last year? Yes,

[00:18:49] we did, but I think there's going to be a reset. And I think a lot of people after COVID,

[00:18:55] we're still trying to figure out what the heck are we going to do? Are we going to get bigger?

[00:18:59] Are we going to get smaller? Are we going to get flex space? We're going to flex hours? It's just

[00:19:05] it comes down to just the different companies and what they think. But I think the blood bath

[00:19:11] in a lot of the newspaper articles applies to coastal rather than our part of the country.

[00:19:20] I'm not seeing the volume of deals that I thought we would see by now, but I'm not completely

[00:19:28] disappointed by the amount of tours or RFPs we're doing because people are coming back to work

[00:19:35] here. So what do you contribute to not seeing the amount of deals? What's your viewpoint on that?

[00:19:40] Well, I thought a lot of people kicked the can down the road and just did one year renewals or

[00:19:44] tried to figure out what am I going to do to get set. And then once they did get set, they're like,

[00:19:49] you know, maybe we don't need as much square footage. And so they just, I think just the

[00:19:54] decision time came a lot quicker than they expected. Like, oh gosh, I got to do something.

[00:20:00] And a lot of the groups we see come out now are in office. Now understand this,

[00:20:07] I don't represent AAA assets. Okay, I'm doing a lot of A minus BB plus,

[00:20:16] you know, space that got hit hardest when a lot of people would take their space out of there and

[00:20:22] go, okay, we'll get smaller, but we'll take class A space. So that's why you're seeing they called

[00:20:26] it flight to quality. They're like, okay, look, if I got to get people to come back,

[00:20:30] I'll get smaller. They don't have to work as many hours, but they're going to have a really

[00:20:32] nice spot. And we kind of jokingly said, yeah, you're going to have a really nice spot for your

[00:20:37] people not to go office. And we laugh it off and move on. But also I had a friend in the business

[00:20:43] who said to me one day, Trey, man, are you going to be okay? The real estate business is going

[00:20:47] away. I know people aren't going to go to the office ever again. And I'm like, really, really.

[00:20:53] I went, uh, you have a kid? He goes, yeah, you know, I do trade, you know,

[00:20:58] I've got a two year old. Oh yeah. You like being at home all day long trying to work

[00:21:06] because I didn't even think about that. Yep. You're I, it wasn't trying to be right. It was

[00:21:11] just tongue in cheek, but I really, I really find it difficult in our firm to create a corporate

[00:21:20] culture. And I shouldn't even say corporate, just a culture and especially in a business where

[00:21:26] you need to mentor and you need to be present and you need to see and or hear vernacular and how

[00:21:32] deals are done and hear how people close and learn how to ask closing questions. And I don't think you

[00:21:37] can do that from a screen and you can't do it from a conference call. You can only do it by being,

[00:21:41] it's like learning a language. You got to be thrown into it, just get fully immersed

[00:21:44] and you learn quickly. But back to your original question. I think a lot of people, especially

[00:21:50] business owners in Texas, want their people on site. They want their people near them.

[00:21:58] And that's why I think that it won't be as bad as a lot of the articles are saying because

[00:22:05] I just think that so much of so many levels of people and their livelihood are based on

[00:22:11] going to work outside the home. Yeah. So what's changed? What's changed in the DFW

[00:22:19] office space in general? I mean, you kind of mentioned downsizing. You mentioned making the

[00:22:24] space really cool. I mean, why don't you expand on that a little bit? What specifically

[00:22:30] as an active office broker have you seen change in the office here?

[00:22:34] I have. I've seen in my whole career, B office always seemed to do well because in a down

[00:22:43] economy, you could move from A to B and keep the same square footage. Right? And save yourself some

[00:22:49] money and get ready for the next turn. Right? Or if the market was not so great and you could

[00:22:56] always dip if you needed to and then come back to it later. But there are always people moving

[00:23:01] to B. It just seems of late that no one was moving to B. Either everyone put themselves

[00:23:08] in a flex space or C in order just to have quick in and out, less contact with other people, no

[00:23:15] elevators, that kind. Or a lot of groups were doing their own fulfillment now instead of doing it

[00:23:20] out of Asia. So they were taking anything with an overhead door they could. And then you

[00:23:26] have other groups that said, okay, if I got 30,000 feet, 40,000 feet of B space,

[00:23:32] we'll just become more efficient. We'll go down to 18 to 22,000 feet and get a nicer,

[00:23:38] nicer space that people will want to come to. It's almost like you're re-recruiting your own people

[00:23:45] to come in. And that's a big change I've seen. I've never seen it where no one,

[00:23:50] where B was getting just shellacked. And that is what's happened since COVID.

[00:23:56] Interesting. As far as layouts go and floor plans, any changes there? I mean, we went from

[00:24:02] private offices to let's max every cubicle we can into a space. I mean, what's going on in today's

[00:24:09] world? I've seen both. I'm seeing tenants that will come in and say, hey, look, let's do,

[00:24:17] let's just do spread out. Let's keep everybody on cubes. We'll give them a lot more room.

[00:24:22] We've seen people go, we'll do 50-50. We'll put glass offices in the inside so that people in

[00:24:28] cubes can have windows. We've seen vice versa. It's all over the board. There's no one way

[00:24:35] that anyone's doing it, which I think it's great because then we have so many different

[00:24:41] points of view, so many different ideas. I think it just leads to more solutions and

[00:24:46] more options. What's interesting though is we have so much B property. It's all second generation,

[00:24:54] a lot of it's dated, older common areas, older restrooms. And then you go to the one building that's,

[00:25:02] you might be touring four buildings, right? And if four of them, three of them haven't done

[00:25:06] any improvements, but that fourth one has redone the common areas, redone the restrooms,

[00:25:10] still like a B plus, might be another buck, buck 50 a foot. But you're like, wow, why wouldn't I

[00:25:15] do this and do it all day long? And so for the owners that did those things, that got out in front

[00:25:20] of it, they're seeing the rewards. Yeah. What about deal structures? Obviously, we're seeing

[00:25:28] operating costs kind of go through the roof these last two years. I mean, with annual

[00:25:36] increases, I imagine a majority of the deals are probably full service, modified gross that you do.

[00:25:42] Are you seeing different deal less term or off any changes there that you're seeing or have observed?

[00:25:49] Yes. I mean, you're correct. The cost to do a build out is just, it's absolutely insane. It

[00:25:55] went up and we thought it would adjust back to something close that we dealt with prior to

[00:26:02] the supply chain issues. But sadly, they've stayed pretty high. And so what you're seeing

[00:26:09] is a couple of things. You're seeing that your TI dollar doesn't go as far. So you have to do more

[00:26:16] term and what would have been carpet paint move a few walls that might have been, well, 10,

[00:26:23] 12 bucks is now 18 or 20. But we will have people come to us on buildings that are

[00:26:30] $20 a foot and go, okay, great, I need 80 and TI. I'm really like, okay.

[00:26:35] Now you're talking about extending lease term. You're talking about doing

[00:26:39] seven and 10 years. I also see in more and more landlords requesting additional

[00:26:44] securitization from tenants. So not just- What does that look like? I'm just curious.

[00:26:50] Yeah, so it's not just, you have to assume as a tenant that you're going to be asked to provide

[00:26:56] a security deposit equal to one month's rent, which has always been the first. Now it's the

[00:27:00] last month's rent and first month's rent up front, even if you're paying free rent,

[00:27:05] even if you're getting free rent, they want that. So say you're getting four months free,

[00:27:08] they want month five upfront and then they wanted a deposit equal to the last.

[00:27:13] But if you don't have robust financials, you can also look to someone come to you and say,

[00:27:18] okay, we're either going to need a prepaid rent, hand security deposit,

[00:27:23] or a letter of credit from your bank so that if things go wrong, we can pull those funds

[00:27:30] and use them for the next tenant that comes along if you go away. Now for a specialty use

[00:27:36] tenant, that's incredibly important because let's say you had a swim place like you had

[00:27:42] an auditorium you built and now they go out of business. Well, how likely are you to lease

[00:27:47] that to somebody else? Not going to happen. So that's kind of especially used. You would take that

[00:27:52] money and then place the space back into a position that it could actually be leased by someone else.

[00:27:59] So we're seeing more and more landlords request that.

[00:28:03] I'm just curious in your market because you do live in a very dominant aggressive market in

[00:28:09] the United States, have you seen tenants stepping up as far as the rent goes when they get these

[00:28:15] TI bids and they get the rent back? That's slow transaction volume at all.

[00:28:21] It does because you have to educate both the landlord and tenant rep. You need to work together

[00:28:27] to best educate both the owner and the tenant exactly how that affects them to make sure

[00:28:33] that they understand that where you're $5 a foot per year, it just doesn't go as far as it

[00:28:40] used to. So where you may have been able to do a five-year deal before, we're asking for more term now

[00:28:47] and of course more annual increases as you move along. So trying to make sure that

[00:28:55] the space is going to be delivered in a way that's expected by both the landlord and the tenant

[00:29:02] but with the costs of what they are. I mean no one wants to pay more for their space but

[00:29:09] if the materials dictate such, there's really nothing you can do about it.

[00:29:13] So is the main remedy that you're seeing just extending the term longer?

[00:29:17] Amortize? Okay, interesting. Yeah, I mean some of them, some tenants are mandated, okay,

[00:29:21] can't do more than three or five years and like okay fine we'll just amortize it in

[00:29:25] that number and but most of them don't want to do that. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's interesting.

[00:29:34] No one likes to overpay. I mean but give me, I mean I'm sure there's every,

[00:29:39] I'll speak for every landlord in the city right now. If a tenant wanted to come in and pay for

[00:29:43] their own TI, the landlord would let them do it. Yeah, there is no doubt in that.

[00:29:50] The age old question, do you think that we're past the full impact of work from home?

[00:29:56] Do you think that it's kind of settled out? Do you think that there's more people coming

[00:30:00] back to the office? I mean what's your unbiased realistic opinion if that's possible on that topic?

[00:30:08] I have absolutely no idea. It's funny, we talk about that. This issue comes up a lot

[00:30:14] both at the dinner table or if you're on the golf course or whatever it just,

[00:30:19] it comes or at the office, it comes up all the time. I think it depends on the company.

[00:30:23] I think it depends on who the core employees are of said company. Are they young? You know,

[00:30:29] are they right out of school? Because the generation that's coming out of school or it has in the last

[00:30:35] few or four years, they think differently than we do. Their needs are different, their wants are

[00:30:40] different and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean change, I believe change is good for

[00:30:46] everyone. I mean you can't just stay static. You've got to get better, you have to adjust

[00:30:52] or what Brad Pitt say in Moneyball, adapt or die. So that's a little extreme but it's

[00:30:59] great movie. But I will say that it does depend. I've seen one of my tenants that was incredibly dense

[00:31:08] and it was call center and it was hard to find a spot to park and during COVID they

[00:31:13] taught everybody how to do their stuff from home and then they wanted to bring them all back.

[00:31:16] There was this big push, they didn't want to do it and so this tenant was so smart.

[00:31:21] They said okay here's what we're going to do. If you're in the top 25% of collections

[00:31:26] you can keep working from home. But if you're not, you've got to come in. So it was incentive-based.

[00:31:34] So now you found out who was really capable of doing what from their basement or from their living

[00:31:41] room or whatever corner of the house. You get to put a desk like me. So if wherever your wife says

[00:31:46] okay you can have that corner. Yeah I think it varies on the company and their make up and

[00:31:54] there's plenty of groups that it's kind of funny because real estate we were really quick back to

[00:31:58] the office. I mean fast, I mean like April of that year and people like why? I went well for two

[00:32:06] reasons. One, we are better together than we are apart and two, how do we go out and sell

[00:32:15] to lease space if we don't do it ourselves? I mean and there were other companies that

[00:32:21] weren't and trust me that was talked about. I mean if you went and talked to a tenant and they're like

[00:32:27] well this my landlord wants me to come back in but they haven't been in the office and they're not

[00:32:32] coming back. And I'm like I don't know what to tell you there. I just kind of you know,

[00:32:37] mind my own. I don't know. I was really concerned about following the rules and being healthy

[00:32:43] and we did. I mean we had people that were distanced and common sense prevailed

[00:32:49] and we brought our people together and you know, we were smart about it but at the same time I

[00:32:55] understand that other companies run by different people with different ideas. They're going to

[00:32:59] do whatever they want to do. Yeah, I think it was interesting too. I always told people

[00:33:04] you know as brokers I mean we've had the option to work from home. I mean

[00:33:09] you have you always I mean depending on the company right and leadership role blah blah

[00:33:14] but we don't have to physically be at the office. I mean with technology where we're at today

[00:33:20] but yet like you said my team's same thing it was so interesting going through COVID.

[00:33:26] I gave my whole team the option. Hey guys, you know if you want if you don't feel

[00:33:32] safe then you can work from home. If you want to come to the office I'm going to be there

[00:33:36] feel free. Everyone was there throughout the whole thing. I mean you know like you said

[00:33:42] April. So it's almost interesting that when you've had the freedom historically it wasn't

[00:33:48] anything really new to us we were actually more prone to go back into the office because we

[00:33:53] understood the value of the culture and being around people and being in the environment

[00:33:56] and like you said we're in an information-based business that's what I tell everyone all the

[00:34:00] time again could you work full-time from home? Sure but you're also going to be

[00:34:04] siloed. You're not going to be exposed to conversations, camaraderie that could bring

[00:34:09] up deals and business within the community. It's just kind of an interesting perspective but yeah

[00:34:15] people ask me all the time my person and I'm like I'm a retail guy I don't I don't know but my

[00:34:20] perception is for certain industries see like I feel like it depends on the company it also

[00:34:25] depends on the role. I've told people all the time if you're if you're an administrative

[00:34:30] role being counter you know type of guy that doesn't really value the culture doesn't

[00:34:35] really value being in the office then yeah it's going to be pretty hard to get you to get in your

[00:34:40] car drive 30 minutes 45 minutes through you know rush hour to a cubicle that you don't really want

[00:34:46] to be at when you could literally just be doing the same job from your house you know but

[00:34:53] in certain industries again like our industry or you know general any any other real

[00:34:58] communications type industry it's important to be around other people so I agree that's

[00:35:02] kind of my take from if you'll allow me as a retail guy to

[00:35:07] I don't think it matters at that point I don't think it matters if you're if you're pushing

[00:35:12] retail warehouse office yeah you're right we have the opportunity to work anywhere we need to be

[00:35:21] I like being around my co-workers I like the interaction we have I like that if

[00:35:29] I pick up the opportunity to do a deal that's outside of my

[00:35:34] lane that I have others I can go to and I think that's the strongest thing because

[00:35:41] I think a lot of brokers think that just because they hold the same license means they can do

[00:35:45] those same things which I believe is an amazing discredit to to their client there's a reason

[00:35:53] why I don't if someone came to me said hey can you sell this house I'm like well I have the

[00:35:57] knowledge but you don't want me doing it I mean you can find a person who knows what they're doing

[00:36:03] there and I don't so yeah even when I even my own I mean I don't I same I mean I there's a

[00:36:10] there's a reason residential brokers exist and I I use I don't want to

[00:36:15] well can't wait yeah for going through the process of buying a house that's for sure so

[00:36:19] before we pivot on the industry just kind of globally I mean what happens with these B

[00:36:24] minus C plus vacant properties I mean you just did an incredible deal I was reading about with

[00:36:32] these Stemins towers oh thanks thank you yeah talk to us a little bit about that because I think

[00:36:37] that's interesting a lot of people are talking about office buildings being converted into

[00:36:41] into apartments which was kind of this story on this deal so tell us a little bit about that

[00:36:46] well it's interesting because we had that listing for a long long time and that's another

[00:36:54] it's funny it's another instance of having in the relationship with the ownership group and then

[00:37:00] coming to me and saying hey we try we want to sell this and I'm like okay no problem got off the phone

[00:37:06] walked down the hall to John St. Clair and went hey we got an owner that wants to sell property

[00:37:10] but we're not going to do it on in a while we're going to do it on the land so how about you

[00:37:16] work this with me he goes no problem and so we said well we'll do this 5050 and let's go

[00:37:21] and had it under contract two different times and and it took us I mean geez I think we had a

[00:37:28] the listing for almost six years before we were able to close a deal oh my gosh and I think

[00:37:34] every single person that has ever represented a buyer in that part of Dallas either called

[00:37:41] or emailed us for information I mean we've got a list that if it didn't if the contract

[00:37:47] fell out we're gonna have to call like 70 people here you go here's what is but

[00:37:54] one of the big reasons why that buyer was chosen was because their plan was to not demo the buildings

[00:38:01] interesting okay yes and another thing that had to be done is which I really thought this was

[00:38:07] awesome is that the seller made sure that the employees who had worked there for decades

[00:38:14] were taken care of I thought that was the emotional piece in this deal never hear about this

[00:38:21] I think if the owner knew I was telling him he'd be like oh Trace top you don't have to talk about

[00:38:25] that but they're just really good people and they believe in the loyalty and dedication of others

[00:38:31] and so they rewarded it I'd never seen that before and I thought that was awesome but the idea

[00:38:36] that they were going to refurb the building repurpose the buildings and keep them there I

[00:38:41] think it that carried a lot away I know the city really appreciates it I think the neighbors do

[00:38:48] I know that for a fact and so there was all kinds of I peep the rumors were great like hey they're

[00:38:53] gonna knock it down and build a golf course or they're gonna knock it down and build these huge

[00:38:59] apartment towers and I'm like man where are these stories coming from but uh but what probably

[00:39:06] is the brokers so uh no but the idea that they were going to repurpose for multi-family and

[00:39:11] perhaps senior living perhaps a hotel it just it played well I'm excited to see

[00:39:19] that come to fruition I least in that sub market done transactions in that sub market

[00:39:25] since the day I started in 99 and I can't wait to drive by and see the hustle and bustle

[00:39:31] now to prep for that we staged all of the whenever at least expired we took them to month to month

[00:39:40] every single one of them so that a buyer would have the you know the flexibility

[00:39:47] to do whatever they needed to do quickly and that's why we based the sale on land value rather than

[00:39:55] a net operating income so that was a fun conversation when someone go hey send me your

[00:39:59] rent roll I'm like rent roll doesn't matter because it's month to month you know there's no one's going

[00:40:04] to give you credit for it again I'm really excited about it I'm proud to have done the deal and I think

[00:40:09] the people that bought it I think Saul was gonna do a great job so tell us a little bit it's two

[00:40:14] I mean it's well hundreds of thousands of square feet two identical office towers correct

[00:40:19] three and three okay yeah so kind of limited of what I'm allowed to talk about about it because

[00:40:28] they've got a lot of great ideas and I think I need to let them be the ones to yeah to be

[00:40:34] able to trumpet what their success is going to be but I'm very excited about it it's going to be

[00:40:39] a very positive move for the sub market because on one side it's you have every hospital that Dallas

[00:40:46] ever thought about having on one side with a huge development about to go up with a partnership

[00:40:51] between UT Southwestern and Children's Hospital it's going to be the premier Children's Hospital

[00:40:57] in the world it's going to be amazing and so on the south side of that you have some office buildings

[00:41:03] and some different multi-use and a really nice project in Pegasus Park and in the last decade

[00:41:11] or so you've started to see nicer higher end multifamily and I think this will move

[00:41:16] in parallel to that it's you know the thing holding that area of town back for the longest

[00:41:22] time was not having a really strong multifamily presence and that's changed a lot over the last 10

[00:41:28] 20 years to the benefit of that sub market very cool do you see that happening kind of as a trend

[00:41:36] with a lot of these older office building yeah yes I do I think yes I think in you know we've

[00:41:42] seen a couple office buildings years ago a building along central expressway was purchased

[00:41:47] by the Dallas Independent School District they consolidated all their stuff into one location

[00:41:52] city of Dallas just bought another building along I-35 and they're going to house all of their

[00:41:58] licensing inspection groups out of one location so they're bringing stuff in so that's a positive

[00:42:05] also I think you're going to see yeah you've seen it downtown some where you've had a couple

[00:42:12] of owners go in and convert their office that was empty to apartments and hotels

[00:42:20] and I think that's really cool I mean I know a tenant that we just placed into a building

[00:42:25] downtown was excited about going into a building that had multifamily and a hotel so when their

[00:42:33] employees would come in from out of town they'd be there they wouldn't have to get into a car

[00:42:39] to go anywhere and you had all kinds of amenities for food and exercise and social activities on site

[00:42:47] that their people actually like coming in from out of town because they're like man this is awesome

[00:42:51] I don't have to run a car they pick me up they bring me here they put me up in the buildings

[00:42:57] hotel or their long-term corporate apartment and it made training and retaining their employees

[00:43:04] a lot easier so as the word about that gets out to other owners you're going to see more do it

[00:43:10] because it seems that every door that you offer for lease especially downtown for a residential

[00:43:16] person gets snagged up quickly yeah so you will see that you'll see some people try some other

[00:43:22] things to do a little bit off the wall you've seen you've seen some warehouse buildings

[00:43:27] go with court sports you know paddle pickleball that's become a big deal I mean if I were a

[00:43:33] Northopedic surgeon I'd probably get an MOB and stick it right next to all the pickleball places

[00:43:38] because yeah why not built in can build a customer base no doubt right right but I think the more

[00:43:46] creative people are to find ways to backfill their space you're gonna see that happen a lot of B

[00:43:53] you know there's still a lot of cranes up in Dallas Fort Worth especially far north

[00:43:57] companies are still moving here but you know when they move here they want to move into a

[00:44:02] quality space and some owners if they choose not to put money into their building and they

[00:44:10] choose not to upgrade restrooms and develop a tenant lounge and give people a place to

[00:44:16] where they like to relax or they feel safe and cared for if you don't do that you're

[00:44:24] going to find yourself on the bad side of occupancy levels yep it's a changing environment

[00:44:30] it really is I think it's changing it's changed more in the last five years for me than it did the 20

[00:44:35] before more sure yeah absolutely yeah it's uh it's kind of fascinating to see the only other question

[00:44:41] I have on the stem and some towers because I was when I was researching I found this very

[00:44:45] interesting are the witches gonna stay in place it's so funny you're not the first

[00:44:52] person to ask I just don't know that's tvd I uh I can tell you what my advice was like don't be messing

[00:45:03] with witches yeah for for the listeners that don't know what I'm talking about just google

[00:45:09] stem and switches they're pretty uh pretty interesting history there so I had a few friends

[00:45:15] yeah that a few friends that knew about it they asked me like so so I went nope not allowed to talk about

[00:45:21] it yeah we'll just leave that to uh leave that to higher powers right literally well cool man well

[00:45:28] congrats getting that done um thanks beginning kind of to our last portion of the show here

[00:45:34] we'll just take a couple minutes and talk about just brokerage in general okay you know you've

[00:45:39] been in the business for 20 years what makes a great broker man in your opinion I mean you've

[00:45:44] been doing it long enough you've seen people come in the business go out of the business what does it

[00:45:49] take to be a good office broker in a very competitive market like DFW wow that's a really good question

[00:45:55] I think I've met and got to know a lot of people that I think are really great at this

[00:46:03] and I pick up qualities from them that that I think make them great like there was a guy

[00:46:11] you always remember a few of them but we recently lost someone in the business Gunny Mike Wyatt who

[00:46:16] was with Cushman forever just nicest guys in the world and I think what made him so good at what he

[00:46:22] did is he was able to give you any kind of news with the same delivery it could be good news

[00:46:30] it could be bad news it could be medium news it could be fake news yeah and he would deliver

[00:46:38] it the same way you didn't feel defensive you know you're like okay well how can I help make this right

[00:46:44] or how can I oh okay great I appreciate you telling me that I mean you just had a great delivery and a

[00:46:49] way to do it but I think what makes a lot of the brokers you know there are a lot of super alpha

[00:46:56] highly aggressive brokers in Dallas and I think if you asked 10 brokers the first three or four

[00:47:02] would all be the same name but I think what makes them all so good is that there are some really

[00:47:08] smart people in this business and the really smart ones are really good at developing maintaining

[00:47:18] and encouraging a positive relationship but man the same time those same people are so good

[00:47:25] about delivering hard truths to their clients I think being able to let your client know

[00:47:34] when they're being overly aggressive or underly aggressive I think you gotta but it's a fine line

[00:47:41] you don't want to seem like you're not on your client's side but I think the best way to make

[00:47:46] sure that they understand the whole situation is to see the side of the other side that makes

[00:47:51] sense walk a mile in their shoes and then you might be able to find common ground because our goal

[00:47:57] is it just to argue our goal isn't to say hey I'm right and you're wrong the goal is to close the

[00:48:04] deal in order to get the clients happy that's the goal it's easy to say walk away from it

[00:48:10] what's the old rule you walk away from a deal three times before you make it and

[00:48:14] I'm like I hate that let's just sit down and figure out a way to be reasonable and where everyone wins

[00:48:23] but we talked about it before I think managing expectations for your client better if it's a

[00:48:27] tenant if it's a if it's a landlord to make sure that when they say well hey I want you to go

[00:48:33] ask for this and then you can tell them okay I'll do it that's not a market concession

[00:48:38] we would be on the edge if we did just know that in case you get a no okay then you

[00:48:43] go fight like heck for it right because that's what we do I think to make sure that you're successful

[00:48:49] in this business I think you've got to be grounded in your character you've got to be who you are

[00:48:56] I tell a lot of the young brokers in our office you know don't try to be me don't try to be

[00:49:02] Sean don't try to be Kathy or Moody try to be yourself because if you try to work a deal like

[00:49:09] someone else would you're going to seem completely disingenuous and I think I've also told a lot of

[00:49:16] our young people that every one of us has been where you are every one of the clients have been

[00:49:23] where you are use that go to someone and say how do I get to where you are find an emotional

[00:49:30] connection with a person you're working with trust me it's flattering it's it's nice to be

[00:49:36] asked hey what do you think or what would you do and I think nine times out of ten they don't realize

[00:49:43] that the person being asked that question can't wait to answer it they want to go oh wow yeah I went

[00:49:49] through that and share common experiences so I think great brokers can do all those things they

[00:49:54] manage expectations they stay true to themselves um they're direct with their clients and quite

[00:50:02] frankly when it comes to inter communication with other brokers we're the same we just make

[00:50:08] it very clear what's to be expected and what we can deliver and then follow through with it

[00:50:13] you do that and you have that reputation and people will bring you more deals because

[00:50:17] they know you can trust you and that's hard to find but I'm happy to say that there are

[00:50:24] quite a few business people in this business that I trust that I know if I picked up a phone

[00:50:29] that said here's what I need they wouldn't think I'm trying to broker them yep yep well and I yeah all

[00:50:35] that's brilliant points and I loved what you said because I think it has so much value with

[00:50:41] actually counseling and advising your clients because I feel like that is a big difference

[00:50:47] differentiating point in my opinion and I mean you can do it to a certain level

[00:50:51] with residential real estate as well but as commercial brokers I mean we are in the

[00:50:56] advisory role 100% and I think a lot of times brokers you will see them misstep or not make

[00:51:04] as much progress as they should because they just aren't comfortable with telling their client

[00:51:10] what they like what their true opinion is on something right which is ultimately why the

[00:51:15] clients engaging with you in the first place is to be more of a consultant be more of an

[00:51:20] advisor and like you said ultimately you need to tell them what they need to do in order to

[00:51:24] get the deal done have a successful transaction versus being scared to tell them what they actually

[00:51:30] need to hear and therefore the deal dies they don't get the space and transaction never happens so

[00:51:36] I think having the courage and obviously that takes experience that takes confidence in yourself

[00:51:41] but having the courage to do that and play that role in your relationship with your clients

[00:51:46] I think is huge and like you said too I I tell people in our firm we use this acronym

[00:51:52] if you will call air a IR it's accountability information and most importantly relationships

[00:51:58] relationships is everything in this business and like you said it's not only cultivating but

[00:52:02] it's also maintaining those relationships and that's what's going to make the best broker

[00:52:08] is someone that has the most relationships the best relationships and someone that is

[00:52:15] of integrity and that the community trusts so I think all of those are are just fantastic

[00:52:22] points man we kind of touched in the beginning of the show you worked with your mentor for eight years

[00:52:27] what was one key takeaway that you just revisit daily weekly monthly what is a piece of advice

[00:52:36] that he gave you that you'd like to share with the audience okay there's a couple of things

[00:52:42] one um he said uh like I told you before never have an issue with someone trying to

[00:52:48] better themselves and that's on any level but uh he also taught me learn how to recognize a deal

[00:52:55] learn how to recognize if what you're working on is going to come to fruition

[00:52:59] or it's going to be a waste of your time trust your gut because we've all met with one side

[00:53:04] of the transaction and you see things and you hear things and you're just you have that little

[00:53:09] voice in the back of your head going oh man this is this is going to be dangerous or

[00:53:16] this is going to be just a waste of my time or and then not and then no disrespect for people who

[00:53:22] think and act differently but you just know okay but he also taught me how to close and it was

[00:53:32] asking closing questions in person and don't be afraid to do that and he's like as you get

[00:53:39] more experienced and you should get more confident because early on you're just trying

[00:53:43] to do what you can to say yes as much as possible and then you get to the point where I was like

[00:53:49] let's say you get asked three or four questions and they're like okay if I get you yeses on all those

[00:53:54] do we have a deal today closing question all right if I if I get you that free parking space

[00:54:00] are we done closing question and as younger people see you do this they'll walk off and go wow

[00:54:07] how'd you do that I went it was simple I asked I found out what the one thing they needed was

[00:54:13] and found a way to give it to them but made it conditional of hot say yes yeah and

[00:54:20] and when it's just like anything else that's like heck I mean you want good training have a four-year-old

[00:54:26] okay remember that ice cream I need you to eat all your bites okay and it's I'm gonna hate to bring

[00:54:30] it down to that level but Michael uh Michael was great about uh about sharing the things that made

[00:54:37] him successful in the business he's also a person to give you the shirt off his back I think that when

[00:54:44] you know someone is that good a character of a human being and giving to others when they take

[00:54:53] the time to give you some advice to make you better you never forget it yeah and so there

[00:55:03] were plenty of times that he would impart wisdom upon me some of them I could share most of them I can't

[00:55:11] but you always knew it was sincere and I'm better for it yeah well well stated I mean time is

[00:55:20] your most valuable asset as a person but especially as a broker I mean that is our main asset that

[00:55:26] we have right right so that's what I tell a lot of brokers too is make sure you vet out if

[00:55:32] someone's real or not like you said it's kind of funny because I was laughing or smiling when

[00:55:37] when you said you just get that feel because after you've been in the business for you just

[00:55:40] know I mean you just have that feeling and it and it really is just a feel that you

[00:55:46] that you learn over a certain amount of time but yeah no that's fascinating man so to wrap up I

[00:55:52] always like to leave with you obviously shared a piece of advice from your mentor I mean what

[00:55:55] would you give as advice to a person getting into the industry or wanting to explore getting into

[00:56:03] commercial real estate what would you tell them I would tell them that they should find the firm

[00:56:09] that fits them best oh interesting because I think a lot of people are so starry eyed about working

[00:56:17] for a big big shop and I've done that I worked at one that was well known every across the country

[00:56:25] and then like my 15th month there they decided to go into chapter 11 bankruptcy so yeah so

[00:56:32] learned a lot learned a lot during that experience so but again you know if you're working at a

[00:56:38] boutique you're going to get access to people and just in here decisions made how they're

[00:56:44] made why they're made and you learn how the sausage is made a whole lot quicker than if you're behind

[00:56:51] a screen in another shop now at the same time that's not to say that it's not the best move for

[00:56:56] other people you just got to find what works for you and a lot of big shops they won't let you do

[00:57:04] multiple lanes you have to either choose landlord office or landlord industrial or tenant

[00:57:11] representation office we don't do that um that's not something that I've ever experienced working

[00:57:18] for the firms I have so I've been lucky in that regard because I do represent tenants I do represent

[00:57:22] owners I I don't pigeonhole myself into one not that sad if I if someone comes to me with an idea

[00:57:30] or or something that I think that is outside of my I find them the right person sure and that

[00:57:36] way they know that I'm true to them and not just to the fee you know because you got it you just can't

[00:57:43] think that way you gotta be able to deliver but more more more over though you gotta find the

[00:57:49] place that you're wanted because a lot of people can you know go boil a room we just hire a mass

[00:57:55] amount of people and weed them all out yeah but I think that when we're looking to hire people

[00:58:01] at our firm we want people who are eager to learn who want to dive in who roll their sleeves up

[00:58:07] and for us the phrase that's not my job yeah that's that's not our that's not us that doesn't fly with

[00:58:15] us and then either you buy the phone pick it up and answer it okay if there's paper on the floor

[00:58:19] pick it up I mean it's just it's common sense stuff it's the things you learn in kindergarten

[00:58:23] how to treat people yeah it's yeah but but that's the thing I would tell people is find the spot

[00:58:29] that's comfortable for you doing what you want to do and make mistakes because you're not gonna learn

[00:58:38] no one learns how to hit better by hitting it over the fence every time you learn by getting plunked

[00:58:43] you learn by getting thrown out you learn by striking out and I think you gotta be able to be

[00:58:51] unafraid to make mistakes and then be able to learn from them so you don't make them again

[00:58:58] I think that's what I tell young brokers and the money will come

[00:59:02] it'll it'll come you just you've just got to survive the first two years

[00:59:08] as I call it death valley so it's a blast we've all all been through it and you can too you just

[00:59:16] gotta stick with it and be smart focus on the right thing so well trade this has been great

[00:59:21] man thanks for taking the time obviously a lot of fun diving not only into some personal items

[00:59:28] but also where the industry is at and then basically the brokerage business as well man so this

[00:59:32] was a great show thanks so much for being with us today thank you for having me it's my pleasure

[00:59:38] thank you for joining me on this episode of the commercial real estate podcast I hope you

[00:59:43] found today's conversation with our guest both insightful and inspiring if you have any

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